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	<title>Comments on: Idaho gubernatorial candidate to hold LDS-exclusive meetings</title>
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	<link>http://usu-shaft.com/2009/idaho-gubernatorial-candidate-to-hold-lds-exclusive-meetings/</link>
	<description>Utah State University Secular Humanists, Atheists, and Free Thinkers</description>
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		<title>By: Di</title>
		<link>http://usu-shaft.com/2009/idaho-gubernatorial-candidate-to-hold-lds-exclusive-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-745</link>
		<dc:creator>Di</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=484#comment-745</guid>
		<description>Kleiner:

Take this article for what it is, but midway down the first page, they say TP is outpolling Reps, but not Dems.

http://www.alternet.org/story/144832/just_how_racist_is_the_tea_party_movement?page=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kleiner:</p>
<p>Take this article for what it is, but midway down the first page, they say TP is outpolling Reps, but not Dems.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.alternet.org/story/144832/just_how_racist_is_the_tea_party_movement?page=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.alternet.org/story/144832/just_how_racist_is_the_tea_party_movement?page=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://usu-shaft.com/2009/idaho-gubernatorial-candidate-to-hold-lds-exclusive-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-717</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 16:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=484#comment-717</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m laughing at the fact that even Brigham Young puts &quot;Mormon&quot; elders is in quotes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m laughing at the fact that even Brigham Young puts &#8220;Mormon&#8221; elders is in quotes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://usu-shaft.com/2009/idaho-gubernatorial-candidate-to-hold-lds-exclusive-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-714</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=484#comment-714</guid>
		<description>I just stumbled upon this; it&#039;s somewhat relevant to our discussion and echos many of my thoughts.

http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormonism-and-the-republican-party/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just stumbled upon this; it&#8217;s somewhat relevant to our discussion and echos many of my thoughts.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormonism-and-the-republican-party/" rel="nofollow">http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormonism-and-the-republican-party/</a></p>
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		<title>By: kleiner</title>
		<link>http://usu-shaft.com/2009/idaho-gubernatorial-candidate-to-hold-lds-exclusive-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-713</link>
		<dc:creator>kleiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=484#comment-713</guid>
		<description>Yes, their is a national movement (tea party, etc) so it is clearly not a mormon sectarian thing.  (I read the other day that the &quot;tea party&quot; movement is polling better than both the Republican and Democratic parties!)  That said, people in these parts seem to have particular verve about it.  Sometimes I feel like a lefty living around here, even though I am pretty conservative (though I’d call myself a “soft paternalist” on liberty issues).

I think there is a distinction that needs to be made on the communitarian point.  A libertarian Mormon might well say, &#039;My donating my possessions to the lds church is entirely voluntary and is based on my voluntary association with the institution.  This makes it unlike the forced taxation for purposes I do not myself approve.  That taxation is &quot;plunder.&quot;’

I do think some of the limited govt stuff has something to it.  We are witnessing a massive expansion of the govt.  (There should have been more anger from this crew when Bush was in office for some of his policies on this same score).  A friend of mine just emailed me an article from Larry Arnn (president of Hillsdale College).  Link to the article is below, but here is an excerpt which raises an interesting criticism, and it is one I have sympathy with (the liberal tendency to see human nature as plastic):
  
 &quot;I have been making the point lately that people are wrong who accuse the Obama administration of being socialist. I take the president at his word when he says that he has no desire to own the automobile companies. Instead, he wants to control them -- and the rest of us as well -- through a regulatory apparatus overseen by czars and bureaucrats.  His intentions are good. What is bad is the view underlying them of what human beings are. Rather than looking on us as equal beings with a set nature -- such that none of us should rule another in the way that God rules man or man rules beast -- our political leaders today have been taught to see us as material to be shaped and perfected by experts who have the proper technical training.&quot; 

http://www.hillsdale.edu/images/userImages/mvanderwei/Page_4221/ImprimisDec09_6pg.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, their is a national movement (tea party, etc) so it is clearly not a mormon sectarian thing.  (I read the other day that the &#8220;tea party&#8221; movement is polling better than both the Republican and Democratic parties!)  That said, people in these parts seem to have particular verve about it.  Sometimes I feel like a lefty living around here, even though I am pretty conservative (though I’d call myself a “soft paternalist” on liberty issues).</p>
<p>I think there is a distinction that needs to be made on the communitarian point.  A libertarian Mormon might well say, &#8216;My donating my possessions to the lds church is entirely voluntary and is based on my voluntary association with the institution.  This makes it unlike the forced taxation for purposes I do not myself approve.  That taxation is &#8220;plunder.&#8221;’</p>
<p>I do think some of the limited govt stuff has something to it.  We are witnessing a massive expansion of the govt.  (There should have been more anger from this crew when Bush was in office for some of his policies on this same score).  A friend of mine just emailed me an article from Larry Arnn (president of Hillsdale College).  Link to the article is below, but here is an excerpt which raises an interesting criticism, and it is one I have sympathy with (the liberal tendency to see human nature as plastic):</p>
<p> &#8220;I have been making the point lately that people are wrong who accuse the Obama administration of being socialist. I take the president at his word when he says that he has no desire to own the automobile companies. Instead, he wants to control them &#8212; and the rest of us as well &#8212; through a regulatory apparatus overseen by czars and bureaucrats.  His intentions are good. What is bad is the view underlying them of what human beings are. Rather than looking on us as equal beings with a set nature &#8212; such that none of us should rule another in the way that God rules man or man rules beast &#8212; our political leaders today have been taught to see us as material to be shaped and perfected by experts who have the proper technical training.&#8221; </p>
<p><a href="http://www.hillsdale.edu/images/userImages/mvanderwei/Page_4221/ImprimisDec09_6pg.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.hillsdale.edu/images/userImages/mvanderwei/Page_4221/ImprimisDec09_6pg.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://usu-shaft.com/2009/idaho-gubernatorial-candidate-to-hold-lds-exclusive-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-712</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 05:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=484#comment-712</guid>
		<description>Good question, Kleiner. I don&#039;t profess to know the answer, but I have a couple thoughts.

I actually doubt that much of the &quot;return to the Constitution&quot; talk in Utah/Idaho can be attributed to the White Horse prophecy. Such talk is not a uniquely Mormon phenomenon, nor is it even a regional one anymore. Republicans nationwide are peddling this brand of constitutionalism.

Were the primary motivation for this constitutionalism religious for Mormons and not partisan, where were these Mormons during the Bush administration&#039;s affronts to the Constitution? Talk about the White Horse prophecy seems to flare up only during Democratic presidencies.

The White Horse prophecy would be more formative to Mormons&#039; political beliefs if it were authoritative, but it&#039;s not. So Mormons who aren&#039;t already inclined toward libertarian and conservative politics can easily discount the prophecy. And for those so inclined, they just tack the prophecy on to their pre-existing beliefs.

It&#039;s also important to note that knowledge about the White Horse prophecy doesn&#039;t penetrate all of the church membership. I can&#039;t imagine many Mormons outside of the United States knowing about so US-centric a prophecy. Men are probably more familiar with the prophecy than women are, too. The prophecy only concerns the men of the church anyway--the &quot;elders of Israel.&quot; This prophecy hasn&#039;t been preached from the pulpit or official channels for many years. Where most Mormon boys learn about it is from their fathers, seminary teachers, etc. So when I say the prophecy is popular, I don&#039;t mean that it&#039;s common knowledge for all Mormons.

Utah Mormons&#039; political beliefs are certainly informed by their religious beliefs. I don&#039;t feel qualified to sketch out that interplay, though. Like you said, I&#039;m sure that the Mormon adherence to libertarian free will lends itself well to libertarian politics. On the other hand, the communitarianism of Mormonism does run counter to the rugged individualism that marks most libertarian political philosophies. And Joseph Smith himself doesn&#039;t fit the Glenn Beck mold at all. Case in point, Smith had members give their possessions to the church for the church to redistribute to those in need (United Order/Law of Consecration).

Somebody correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but I don&#039;t remember Mormons subscribing to libertarian politics before the mid 20th century. It wasn&#039;t until the civil rights era, the Cold War, the feminist and LGBT movements, and leaders like Ezra T. Benson and Bruce R. McConkie that Mormons became distinctly libertarian. In fairness, though, conservative and libertarian thought as we know it today didn&#039;t even exist before the mid 20th century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good question, Kleiner. I don&#8217;t profess to know the answer, but I have a couple thoughts.</p>
<p>I actually doubt that much of the &#8220;return to the Constitution&#8221; talk in Utah/Idaho can be attributed to the White Horse prophecy. Such talk is not a uniquely Mormon phenomenon, nor is it even a regional one anymore. Republicans nationwide are peddling this brand of constitutionalism.</p>
<p>Were the primary motivation for this constitutionalism religious for Mormons and not partisan, where were these Mormons during the Bush administration&#8217;s affronts to the Constitution? Talk about the White Horse prophecy seems to flare up only during Democratic presidencies.</p>
<p>The White Horse prophecy would be more formative to Mormons&#8217; political beliefs if it were authoritative, but it&#8217;s not. So Mormons who aren&#8217;t already inclined toward libertarian and conservative politics can easily discount the prophecy. And for those so inclined, they just tack the prophecy on to their pre-existing beliefs.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also important to note that knowledge about the White Horse prophecy doesn&#8217;t penetrate all of the church membership. I can&#8217;t imagine many Mormons outside of the United States knowing about so US-centric a prophecy. Men are probably more familiar with the prophecy than women are, too. The prophecy only concerns the men of the church anyway&#8211;the &#8220;elders of Israel.&#8221; This prophecy hasn&#8217;t been preached from the pulpit or official channels for many years. Where most Mormon boys learn about it is from their fathers, seminary teachers, etc. So when I say the prophecy is popular, I don&#8217;t mean that it&#8217;s common knowledge for all Mormons.</p>
<p>Utah Mormons&#8217; political beliefs are certainly informed by their religious beliefs. I don&#8217;t feel qualified to sketch out that interplay, though. Like you said, I&#8217;m sure that the Mormon adherence to libertarian free will lends itself well to libertarian politics. On the other hand, the communitarianism of Mormonism does run counter to the rugged individualism that marks most libertarian political philosophies. And Joseph Smith himself doesn&#8217;t fit the Glenn Beck mold at all. Case in point, Smith had members give their possessions to the church for the church to redistribute to those in need (United Order/Law of Consecration).</p>
<p>Somebody correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but I don&#8217;t remember Mormons subscribing to libertarian politics before the mid 20th century. It wasn&#8217;t until the civil rights era, the Cold War, the feminist and LGBT movements, and leaders like Ezra T. Benson and Bruce R. McConkie that Mormons became distinctly libertarian. In fairness, though, conservative and libertarian thought as we know it today didn&#8217;t even exist before the mid 20th century.</p>
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		<title>By: kleiner</title>
		<link>http://usu-shaft.com/2009/idaho-gubernatorial-candidate-to-hold-lds-exclusive-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-708</link>
		<dc:creator>kleiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=484#comment-708</guid>
		<description>I am sure this is difficult to measure, Jon, but how much of the &quot;return to the Constitution&quot; stuff that you hear in Utah/Idaho do you think is attributed to this &quot;prophecy&quot;?  I always assumed it was the result of the radical libertarian political ethos around here rather than some religious connection.  I had never heard of this &quot;prophecy&quot; before.
Here is another way of phrasing it -- are the libertarian politics around here the effect of the religious prophecy, or did the religious prophecy arise out of the libertarian politics?  

They both seem to intertwined, perhaps it will be difficult to make a causal case here.  Sherlock will tell you that the libertarian view of freedom drives the Mormon theology.  It is absolutely fundamental. If you have a radically libertarian notion of freedom (as Sherlock and Mormonism generally do), then you have to be committed to &quot;metaphysical pluralism&quot; (that men are equal with god, for if they were dependent on god for their existence then they would not be free in the radically libertarian sense).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sure this is difficult to measure, Jon, but how much of the &#8220;return to the Constitution&#8221; stuff that you hear in Utah/Idaho do you think is attributed to this &#8220;prophecy&#8221;?  I always assumed it was the result of the radical libertarian political ethos around here rather than some religious connection.  I had never heard of this &#8220;prophecy&#8221; before.<br />
Here is another way of phrasing it &#8212; are the libertarian politics around here the effect of the religious prophecy, or did the religious prophecy arise out of the libertarian politics?  </p>
<p>They both seem to intertwined, perhaps it will be difficult to make a causal case here.  Sherlock will tell you that the libertarian view of freedom drives the Mormon theology.  It is absolutely fundamental. If you have a radically libertarian notion of freedom (as Sherlock and Mormonism generally do), then you have to be committed to &#8220;metaphysical pluralism&#8221; (that men are equal with god, for if they were dependent on god for their existence then they would not be free in the radically libertarian sense).</p>
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		<title>By: Source</title>
		<link>http://usu-shaft.com/2009/idaho-gubernatorial-candidate-to-hold-lds-exclusive-meetings/comment-page-1/#comment-702</link>
		<dc:creator>Source</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 22:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://usu-shaft.com/?p=484#comment-702</guid>
		<description>@ Rex: Way to use hyphens where you should have put em-dashes. Dork.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Rex: Way to use hyphens where you should have put em-dashes. Dork.</p>
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