Some of you have probably already seen this video, but I’d be remiss not to post it.
In our blogroll at the right, you’ll find a couple sites that discuss the less-inspired (and sometimes downright disgusting) Bible verses. The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible is a great resource for such verses in not only the Bible, but the Book of Mormon and Qur’an as well. The creator of SAB, Steve Wells, also manages the blog Dwindling in Unbelief. There, he’s compiled a list of all the death’s for which God is responsible in the Bible. His current estimate: 2,316,428!
Now, I won’t argue that Christianity is necessarily saddled with the ugly parts of the Bible. Not every Christian is a Biblical literalist or inerrantist. But the video does express my frustration with those who arbitrarily cherry-pick from their scriptures only the nice stuff.
“Now, I won’t argue that Christianity is necessarily saddled with the ugly parts of the Bible. Not every Christian is a Biblical literalist or inerrantist.”
Perhaps “saddled” isn’t the right word, but every Christian should have to deal with the fact that these verses exist, and are in fact endorse by The Man himself, Jesus H Christ. In not terribly ambiguous terms, the OT makes clear that Yahweh is a monster in almost every conceivable interpretation of morality. The variance is only in the character, quality, and choreography of dance that believers perform to rationalize it, if they even choose to withdrawn theirs heads from the sand.
Being a Creedal Christian, I appreciate a thoughtful criticism and a well-founded argument for or against a position I hold. I have always chafed at Christian apologists that used all and ever argument — even if it is a bad argument. The over-the-top apologist often ends up damaging the very ground from which his own logic begins.
As logical and slick as this video clip sounds, it is a ‘throw-in-the-kitchen sink’ argument. There are certainty verses that are difficult to swallow and justify as a Christian. But many (if not most) of the verses used tell me that the author believes that there is no basis for judging behavior. Here is one example:
He mentions that YHWH kills 185,000 of an invading army. Of course, this YHWH is a blood thirsty tribal god to kill 185,000 soldiers, right? Well, this is the Assyrian army under Sargon that was notorious for its brutality and war machinery. They would enter a region to burn and destroy villages and their surround crops. They would force entry of men into their army and carry most of the population away for resettling in other lands. The Assyrians attacked Northern Israel (720 BC) after previously destroying other nearby countries. They basically destroyed the Northern nation of Israel, which was considered judgement on Israel. Later, Sennacherib of Assyria attacks the Southern Kingdom of Judah (702 BC). After destroying a few towns and the surrounding crops, they attacked Jerusalem (702 BC). After a many month siege, the Assyrians suffer a sickness in the camp (probably drinking feces tainted water coming out of the city of Jerusalem). The Assyrian army decides to leave because the general hears of intrigue back in Nineveh. The city of Jerusalem goes outside to find 100,000 or so dead Assyrians and say that the angel of the Lord walked through the camp to bring judgement on the Assyrians.
Well ok. regardless of whether an Angel of the Lord smote 185,000 Assyrians in judgement, the video creator is saying that YHWH is a miserable god, because he harshly judged the ruthless Assyrians for their unprovoked attack. Well let see. Perhaps there is good reason to say that YHWH’s judgement was ok? Would the video creator say there is never any reason to consider that a nation acts are evil? Nazi Germany? I am not talking about YHWH’s judgement, I am talking about the video creators arguments that YHWH must be despicable because he judges … ever! If you embrace this little video’s indication that any judgement is bad judgement, then you fall into must embrace ‘no action is evil’. You also lose any ground to criticize any judgements of YHWH, because there is no such thing as evil judgement either! With a little more care one could narrow the verses down to be the very problematic verses (there are some, but give the benefit of the doubt to borderline verses and don’t use every verse!).
The video just becomes a bitter diatribe rather than a reasonable argument, because it uses over-the-top logic against every verse of judgement.
So to sum up your objection: “Context!!!!!!” ;)
I think your criticism is somewhat misguided, but I’ll have to respond at greater length later.
I am glad there is a smiley face, otherwise any discussion is short-circuited by broad-brush categorization.
My argument is that he criticizes all judgements as bad judgements, which removes any ground to say his judgement of YHWH is valid.
By the way, I agree there are problematic versus, but I don’t hold to the Bible being inerrancy and infallibility. I can’t believe either. At least, the book is a RELIGIOUS history that encourages humanity to continuously consider personal and community ethics. I put the bible in the category as a human ‘testament (or two)’ of G-d’s activity and communication to a particular community. It is a blend of the divine and the human that requires humility interpretation and application. The basics of the overarching story I hold is:
1 creator ‘god’ who requires ‘goodness’
the world isn’t quiet what it should be
humanity is one of the world’s biggest problems
there is’ goodness’ and ‘uselessness’ and ‘evil’
humanity is called to enter into a commitment of ‘goodness’ in ‘community’
humanity is called to find ways to repair things that are broken (relationships, world)
forgiveness is an important avenue of repair.
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the quoted words have to defined using humility and self-inspection. Now I use that overarching story to interpret the book, but the hard versus I do put on a shelf called “Questions” I don’t expect the whole book to be perfect in detail or perfect in modern logic. I recognize that this accommodation for the imperfect may be a difficulty for you. So be it.
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I’m not going to defend Assyrian war practices. The reason I find the story about an angel of the Lord killing 185,000 soldiers problematic is that I have a hard time believing that an omniscient, omnipotent God could not think of a less draconian way to deal with the Assyrian forces. Killing them is too easy. I’d expect God to be a bit more creative–say, give all the soldiers amnesia or something.
I also don’t know why you singled this story out. The video offered several more damning verses. Very rarely do I even here this verse mentions by atheists as an indictment of the Bible.
That is why the Bible should be called religious history. The author looked back at the 185000 soldiers killed by an illness and called it the invisible hand of the Lord. There are quite a number of ‘hand of the Lord’ activities that have very naturalistic events. I have made this point before, that YHWH seems to prefer the ‘invisible hand’ method of action. A lot of judgment activities in the world can be identified as ‘you reap what you sow’ or even ‘karma’. This is probably true for nations as well and for humanity as a whole. For example, I assume that ‘the hand of YHWH’ will be behind destructive global warming effects if humanity continues to be selfish. I assume that most economic disasters are judgments of greed in the national and international economies. Karma.
The religious interpretation of history helps readers know that G-d is concern with a nation’s just and unjust behavior. The Bible also cautions that ‘revenge is the Lord’s', that is, we don’t have to be concern about judging other nations … G-d will sometime.
The only reason I singled the Assyrian conquest out is that it was easy to talk about justice in that case. The video did offered good examples of ‘damning’ verses. I was just saying that it went beyond its intent and took on verses that seemed to have reasonable justice issues that could be defended. I am irritated by ANYBODY (theist or atheist) who uses hyperbole and ideological excess when they pretend to be using reason and logic. The extent of verses in the video indicated that there are never any suitable justice issues for judgments on people — ever.
Fair enough. And I totally agree with the following: “The author looked back at the 185000 soldiers killed by an illness and called it the invisible hand of the Lord. There are quite a number of ‘hand of the Lord’ activities that have very naturalistic events.”
Vince, you seem to be okay with Yahweh as presented in the OT, even accounting for the possibility of Biblical errancy. Do you agree with justice against whole peoples? That is, killing man, woman and child as punishment for some violation. Since it’s God sanctioning the killing, is it okay? Or are all of these accounts actually in error, in your view?
Hunt,
I am NOT ok with any particular judgement the religious history of the Bible indicates. I don’t need to “agree” with any judgment of any particular human or event biblical or otherwise. I have no place judging anyone even historically. I don’t assume that I know exactly or understand exactly what YHWH did, is doing, or will do EVEN AS I READ the Bible. Rather, as a theist based within the Judeo-Christian tradition, I will receive the record of this particular people as a Testament that YHWH is concerned with justice and mercy between individuals, within communities, and between nations. YHWH will judge all of history and humanity … not me. YHWH will show mercy to humanity as YHWH decides to … not me.
However, I understand as I read these stories is that justice, mercy, kindness are demanded of me and humanity by YHWH. I will try to use the Bible (Jesus in particular) to inform me what justice is, what mercy is, what kindness is. I will also use wise humans in general to understand these things. I have benefited recently on these things by reading the book “What the Buddha Taught”. I am not ‘called’ to agree in satisfaction that the Assyrians got what they deserved. However, I am called to strive to be Just, to be Merciful, to be humble. I will try to understand these things.
The Prophet Micah stated just prior to the Assyrian siege of Jerusalem that the Lord’s vengeance would be rained upon Assyrians for their ruthless treatment of Israelites and other people groups (chapter 5). He doesn’t say how or when exactly.
Then Micah turns back to remind Israel and Judah what he requires and why he is punishing them with the Assyrian attacks (Chapter 6) The Prophets most often call for self-inspection rather than self justification.
I would suggest that the proper ears to hear the Bible are ears of self inspection. It is not to nod in agreement that “they got there just punishment”. The best reading pursues to answer “How should I live with my neighbor.” Jesus informs this pursuit by stating that one should avoid condemnation of the other and one should pursue kindness towards the other. All other interpretations are void.
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Micah 6:3-16 (The Message version)
G-d has made it plain how to live, what to do,
what God is looking for in men and women.
It’s quite simple: Do what is fair and just to your neighbor,
be compassionate and loyal in your love,
And don’t take yourself too seriously—
take God seriously.
Attention! God calls out to the city!
If you know what’s good for you, you’ll listen.
So listen, all of you!
This is serious business.
Do you expect me to overlook obscene wealth
you’ve piled up by cheating and fraud?
Do you think I’ll tolerate shady deals
and shifty scheming?
I’m tired of the violent rich
bullying their way with bluffs and lies.
I’m fed up. Beginning now, you’re finished.
You’ll pay for your sins down to your last cent.
No matter how much you get, it will never be enough—
hollow stomachs, empty hearts.
No matter how hard you work, you’ll have nothing to show for it—
bankrupt lives, wasted souls.
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For clarity “YHWH will judge all of history and humanity … I will not. YHWH will show mercy to humanity as YHWH decides to … I will not.