In what is probably an exercise in sado-masochism, I’ll be blogging this weekend’s LDS General Conference. Not everything will be of interest to SHAFT, so I won’t bore you with the tedium of conference talks and testimonies. I do, however, want to share a few observations. I’ll be adding some thoughts throughout conference weekend, so check back with us.
But first, a bit of levity. The following is a LOL Cats’ rendition of conference:
Credit to My Religious Blog for the conference comic.
So . . . wait.
Pernogrify is bad?
I can haz no pernogrify?
I heard that one guy going on about how the “natural man” is an enemy to god, and is foolishness to him. Drat. I feel terrible.
If the natural man is an enemy of God, and homosexuality is “unnatural” (as many Mormons claim), then does it follow that the homosexual is a friend of God?
Haha, Jon. What I don’t understand is the belief that if anything is natural for a human being to do, you should avoid an affinity for it… I’m going to hell ’cause I love food… and breathing
Thank you Jon for saving us from having to watch. To be honest I forgot it was this weekend.
Natural man. LoL. Nice.
Keep it up.
So did Jon forget or something?
Ha ha. No. I’m working on it–life is just busy and this isn’t priority number one. I’ll do a follow-up to this post tomorrow. I promise.
I really have to wonder – if you do not believe in God, why the obsession with Him? I find things that I do not agree with all of the time but I dismiss them and move on with what I want out of life. Right now all I want is a great motorcycle, some money and an expensive camera. Oh, and time ;)
It’s no “obsession,” but there’s no doubt that the things in which I don’t believe (Mormonism, et al) consume a lot of my time. I wish they didn’t. I don’t believe in unicorns, for instance, but I needn’t blog about my disbelief toward them. So I understand your confusion. Here’s the difference, though: a belief in unicorns is rather innocuous; a belief in certain religious teachings, however, isn’t. Perhaps more importantly, I don’t know many people who believe in unicorns! Thus it’s not an issue for me. A belief in Mormonism, on the other hand, is pervasive–in Utah at least, where I live. Even if I wanted to be done with Mormonism, I really couldn’t escape it so long as I live here–it’s ever-present. Being a non/ex-Mormon in Utah is a phenomenon I doubt many Mormons can appreciate.
If you really want to know more as to why I write so much about Mormonism, I’d ask that you read this post: http://usu-shaft.com/2009/why-i-dont-believe-an-invitation-to-dialogue/
Thanks for the comment, Wayne.
I still feel that it is more healthy to agree to disagree in most cases. Spend the extra time doing things that make you happy. Spend extra time dooing what makes others around you happy.
I try to follow this example/thought:
“What I do today is important because I am paying a day of my life for it.
What I accomplish must be worthwhile because the price is high” – unknown
I respect your right to do as you please, just don’t understand the drive to spend time and effort on and with something you do not like.
I am older now (you would call me really old) and I see life through a different path. The way I saw things when I was your age and the way I see things now, well, I wish I had reached now back then! (bad writing I know but it is what it is)
There is more to life than we see.
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Hello, my name is Jake Housel and I wanted to post my thoughts concerning this blog, especially about the “natural man.” Just as a short introduction to myself, I graduated from USU in philosophy last spring, and I found this blog through the usu philosophy blog. I read Jon’s invitation to dialogue. Although I do have to somewhat question the sincerity of the invitation when I see a cat mimicking general conference speakers. But nonetheless what is wrong with a little sense of humor. I am very much committed to the Mormon faith and would like to discuss the “natural man” issue. First and foremost as I have read other posts on this blog, I realize that my explanation might not be so popular, but with Jon’s invitation, I thought to myself, hey why not. Just so everyone knows my attitude in responding to this post, I have taken the time to put an honest response, and if there are people who are not willing to respond with kindness, I would ask you just to refrain from responding, but if you have to respond in this way, well then by all means go for it. But do not expect a sincere answer. The words of the Apostle Paul comes to mind in this situation, which says, “Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.” 1 Cor 8:1
So on to the natural man. In the Book of Mormon, which a lot of LDS people will quote concerning the natural man is found in the book of Mosiah chapter 3 verse 19. Let me quote it here so I can lay the framework for my blog. “For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticing’s of the Holy Spirit and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.”
Now the word “natural” when used in the scriptures, and I will include the Bible as well is used differently then it is used everyday. Natural in the everyday sense indicates an inherited part of our makeup or something we are born with. But the scriptures teach that natural means fallen or sinful. Though as Mormons believe that people are born innocent, all men through the fall of Adam are born into a fallen world. We could go on more about original sin and the fall of Adam, but that can be a discussion for some later time. Let me share one other scripture that is found in the New Testament that shows this use of the word “natural.” 1st Corinthians 2:11and14, ” For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.”
Paul is explaining here that the natural man e.g. the sinful man will not be able to understand the things of God. The Book of Mormon says (as does Paul, if you read the rest of the versus) that if one submits his will to God, he can then discern between what is of God and what is not of God.
With that being said, when Mormons as with other Christians say that homosexuality is not natural, they are saying that homosexuality is sinful, and that the “natural man” would advocate that it is in fact natural. So I believe that you are misusing the term. Clearly Mormons would not want to say that homosexuality is a friend of God, but they would want to say that natural man or the sinful man would claim that it is natural. The scriptures say the same thing. Also, it is in fact natural to eat and breath, but I do not think that Mormons would say that it is a sin to do such, and I think that any reasonable person would agree, but maybe not. So the natural man is a sinful man, and one of the main goals of Mormonism is to put of this natural man and become more like the “Everlasting Man” or simply put, God. Bruce R. McConkie said, “To know God in that full sense which will enable us to gain eternal salvation means that we must know what he knows, enjoy what he enjoys, experience what he experiences. In New Testament language, we must “be like him.” (1 John 3:2)
In conclusion, I thank you for reading my post. These are my feelings concerning the natural man. I hope this makes sense and maybe this can open up further discussion. I must let everyone know that I do approach these conversations humbly. For I am myself trying to understand God, and I do have a faith that a lot of these hard philosophical questions can be answered. I do not have all of the answers, but I am very open to honest dialogue, and the continual pursuit of Truth, and that is why I stay committed to my faith, namely The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Thanks for your time, hopefully we can chat.
I don’t know if Jake will still see this, but to anyone else who wants to post comments this long, email to be a guest blogger. I’ll put up your writing in a post instead.
Comments aren’t really meant for this sort of (unbroken paragraphs) length.
When I hear talk about the “natural man” being an enemy to god, I think of a man that has no control over his “natural” impulses (being violent when you’re angry, stealing things that you want, etc.). I think that this concept is meant to encourage people to have self control. It promotes examining a situation before acting.
Self-discipline is a concept shared by many religions/philosophies and I have no problem with the LDS attitude towards the “natural man”. I think people just made some clever jabs at it based on a disagreement with the churches attitude towards homosexuals.
Jake, thanks for posting. I hope you keep commenting on future topics. I feel that when there are dissenting opinions this becomes more of a debate/discussion than just some kind of “religious gossip”.
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